Episode 002: Navigating Brand Evolution & Client Relationships
In episode two of apt24b, we dive into the evolving world of brands and consumer engagement. Discover the impact of seasonal shifts on marketing, the power of community in an online ecosystem, and how to make your brand stand out in a crowded market. Plus, get real about the client-agency dynamic and the essential blend of passion and flexibility in entrepreneurship.
Key Themes:
Seasonal Influence on Consumer Behavior: How shifts in seasons and consumer mindsets impact brand engagement strategies.
Engagement through Innovation: The significance of adapting to social media trends and consumer demands for novel content and packaging.
The Dynamics of Client-Agency Relationships: Strategies for effective collaboration between brands and their creative partners.
Navigating Brand Stagnation: Insights on keeping brands dynamic and relevant in a rapidly evolving market.
Entrepreneurship Realities: The challenges and rewards of brand ownership and the entrepreneurial journey.
Taira (00:02.55)
Welcome everyone to episode two of Apartment 24B. I'm Taira Daniel, he's Taylor Smith. Thank you for tuning in to another episode. T, I can't believe we're in March already. I was looking at the calendar this weekend. Daylight savings time is this week and around the corner.
Taylor (00:19.603)
Thank you.
Taylor (00:25.543)
Yeah.
Taira (00:27.234)
We're praying for more sunny skies and less rainy days in LA.
Taylor (00:32.742)
So this means clocks go back, right? Spring forward, okay. Because I saw a post on social media saying your clocks change. And the post was like, well, I hope it goes back to the 99s and 2000s when life was easier.
Taira (00:35.202)
Yeah, I know we're springing forward. Spring forward.
Taira (00:43.174)
Thousands, right. I was like, yo, social media don't miss. They always on top of it.
Taylor (00:51.726)
I just told someone, the internet remains undefeated. You just can't beat it. So yeah.
Taira (01:00.034)
You know, with the change of season, it got me to thinking, you know, consumers to have a changing in a mindset and their behaviors and even including how they spending their money. And I thought for this episode, what better way than to discuss how can brands avoid stagnation, right? And continually engage with their audience. And
Taylor (01:12.068)
Yeah.
Taylor (01:20.421)
you
you
Taira (01:28.992)
Before we take our listeners through the process of how do they work with an agency like either one of ourselves. As a creative director, why is it important for brands to evaluate how they're engaging with their core audience?
Taylor (01:42.567)
You know, it all it all blows down to a brand brands Need to build number one community. That's the over
Taira (01:56.802)
you
Taylor (01:57.16)
And because most brands right now live online, at least the brands I work with, everyone lives online. So you have to focus on how do I keep that customer engaged who I may not personally be seeing or touching day to day.
Taira (02:07.874)
you
Taylor (02:30.489)
behind me. So I think that mindset always thinking 10 steps ahead is always key for either a new brand or an existing brand. What are your thoughts?
Taira (02:38.836)
No, I think that is true. I think that our social media platforms are updating and they're updating continuously. Updates are being put out. They're testing new platforms, new formats within the platforms. I think Instagram is always bringing out new rules and case studies and white papers for marketers to understand how to use their platforms.
Taylor (02:50.214)
Yeah.
Taylor (03:07.526)
Yeah.
Taira (03:07.65)
We went from image heavy to then video heavy to then reels then to carousels to no well actually carousels Photos now instead of being square are now more vertical. You know all of these all of these changes happen really fast. So we always want to make sure that when we have the content to feed the machine so to speak and we understand Okay, what are the ways are we engaging our fans are?
Taylor (03:12.11)
Yeah.
Taylor (03:21.657)
Yeah.
Taylor (03:30.712)
Yeah.
Taira (03:37.538)
fans wanting to see long form content on YouTube? Are they YouTube viewers? Are they on TikTok, where they can literally scroll through and shop also too now at the same time on that platform, right? Are they still very on Twitter? I know everybody is up in arms about Twitter and don't want to touch Twitter with a 10 foot pole.
Taylor (03:51.425)
Yeah.
Taylor (04:00.645)
Yeah.
Taira (04:02.082)
But I still think that there's value and an importance on Twitter, right? And I think also too why it's important is because consumers get tired of seeing the same messaging and the imaging. And then also too, they're bombarded with so much information on a daily basis, right? Email, social media, TV, commercials, radio, podcasts. I mean, there's so many different ways in which...
Taylor (04:07.531)
Absolutely.
Taylor (04:19.401)
Yeah.
Taylor (04:25.33)
Yeah.
Taylor (04:30.935)
you
Taira (04:31.104)
consumers can consume content with how they can engage with your brand, you always have to figure out a way to explore and break barriers.
Taylor (04:41.311)
Absolutely. I think, you know, again, most direct to consumer brands have to, you can't get stuck on one thing. Like you have a piece of copy or creative that may have been successful last quarter. Yes, you can't live on that. You can't keep harping and keep pushing that same agenda because people will get tired of it.
Taira (04:55.554)
you
Taylor (05:03.717)
So you have to always be thinking ahead, like what else can I do? What other form factor can I deliver this messaging in? And that for me wholeheartedly goes to like when creating or helping brands create tangible goods, what type of packaging can we make that's engaging, interactive, will give you that wow factor. I don't care how simple the product is, what else can I do as a brand to just be reinventing?
myself time and time again that you'll stay falling in love with what we put out and what we do.
Taira (05:40.994)
And then also I think too that brings up unconventional packaging. I think you introduced me to this Taylor, right? You know, the dog brand that sells their product in a box that looks like cereal.
Taylor (05:53.197)
Oh yeah.
Taira (05:54.082)
And then all you have to do every month is get a different bag delivered to your home and you just put that in the box. Right. I just saw something from one of our favorite, you know, creative directors, Oren. He was talking about on his newsletter, you know, caricatures on, you know, products and olive oil. I think it was brand having a cartoon type mascot. Right. Going back to those old 90s commercials when you have
Taylor (05:58.435)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taylor (06:07.011)
Mm -hmm.
Taylor (06:12.613)
Yeah.
Taylor (06:19.461)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Taira (06:24.036)
these mascots that were you know and marketing I don't think there's anything that can that
Taylor (06:24.255)
Absolutely.
Taira (06:34.05)
It's new, right? That can be reinvented. I think what makes things different is technology, right? What abilities we have to create moving forward. So I think you start to see a lot of, there was a time when, you know, everybody wanted to be super, super clean and modern, right? Now you're starting to see again now a change in guard with, you know, more avant -garde packaging, really ornate packaging, detailed packaging, right? Because yes, we're a DTC,
Taylor (06:35.781)
Yeah.
Taylor (06:51.491)
Yeah.
Taira (07:04.004)
see a lot of times, but I think a lot of people dream of being on store shelves. I think, you know, the everyday consumer when they when they write that review, you know, is taking a picture of that package, you posting it on your social media. And so now you the eyes.
Taylor (07:11.179)
Absolutely.
Taylor (07:20.325)
Yeah.
Taira (07:26.974)
the amount of eyes that you could have at any given time on your product. So how is it that it's gonna stand out? Even when we talk about sweatshirts, you and I both love sweatshirts. There's so many types now of sweatshirts on this market that you can buy from, right? There's no longer, oh, slap a logo on it and pray and hope that people like. No, we wanna, does it feel good? Is it soft? Does it shrink when you wash it? All of these things are being taken into consideration.
Taylor (07:29.189)
Mm -hmm.
Taylor (07:36.837)
Yeah.
Taylor (07:51.429)
Hahaha.
Taylor (07:55.693)
Absolutely, absolutely. And going back to your point, people want to be on shelves. That's a great point. Because I think in the consumer space,
when you think of a brand on shelf, like you look like I was out shopping, like Ralph's Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, whatever. But I always gravitate towards a product that has the loudest packaging. And I'll give that product a shot over something that's kind of just in the mix with everything else. Like if you're a food product or you're, you know, a water, for example, you go down the water aisle in a Whole Foods, it all kind of looks the same.
but then you have like that one that one brand who just did things different it could be the the typeface the logo the color choices you you know like it's water the container type but you're like you know i'm gonna try this because this looks different it feels different and then that plays into your psychology with you're like damn what does this water make me feel better
Taira (08:49.386)
container type.
Taylor (09:03.297)
Absolutely not. But that's, they did their job.
And that's like for me as a consumer, I'm that person. So when I have meetings with brands, I don't care how simple your product is. Just think of, put yourself in the consumer's shoes. Most consumers want to be wowed. They want to look at something and be like, damn, this is, it looks cool. It's different. And if you look at a lot of products now, no matter what it is, it all kind of has this, this vibe to it because people,
want to see things in their homes that fit in the aesthetic So when thinking about that, it's like how do I position this brand to live in that lane? If someone buys my product like the dog food company you talked about.
People are past that era of like, I have this 40 pound dog food bag in my closet or in my garage because it's ugly and it doesn't fit and it's just in the way. Now I have this discreet box that looks like any home good or any consumer kind of food packaging that you would see and it just fits. It doesn't look out of place in my world now. And I think that's the
everyone's going towards.
Taira (10:28.578)
Right. Not even just, I think, the packaging on that. I think also when we look at, you know, sticking with the pets, their food dispensers now, there are so...
Taylor (10:38.101)
Yeah.
Taira (10:40.33)
So many types of ways now in which you don't have to look at this ugly bowl in the corner of the kitchen no more, right? If you're really super modern and want something sleek and sexy that raises the bowl, they have, you know, three, $400, $500 type, you know, dog bowls now, right? There's no more, oh, we don't spend that because no.
Taylor (10:45.669)
Right. Right.
Taylor (10:57.733)
Yeah, yeah, picking up.
Taira (11:04.514)
It's no different than any other type of purchase I would make for my home. My pet is a part of my home, so the aesthetic in which and the things I buy for my pet fits my personality and my home.
Taylor (11:05.029)
Yeah.
Taylor (11:11.597)
Absolutely.
Taylor (11:18.009)
Absolutely. And you know, I'm not a, I don't have pets, but people treat their dogs and cats like family.
You know, so as a brand, you have to put that in consideration. If we're diving down that pet world, you know, people want things that they want to match their dogs. They want to match their cats, the decor, the, the accessories, the, the, the shirts they put on. I want my dog to have the same outfit as I do and we're going somewhere. So that just trickles down into, Hey, the food step, it all, it all fits in this same world. Now I feel, and you just have to be conscious of that as a brand when you're making
product, when you're making packaging, when you're thinking about, hey, how do I talk to that consumer type, you always got to be thinking ahead because the consumer is there. And if you're late to the curve, you're going to be too late to everyone else.
Taira (12:10.082)
Okay, you brought up a very strong point because you and I have been on the same with a client who we thought was putting passion into the brand, right? But instead was chasing what other successful brands on the market was doing, which brings up the, you know, how does passion, right, cultivate?
Taylor (12:20.101)
Yeah.
Taylor (12:26.659)
Yeah.
Taira (12:35.138)
the brand, how does that help sustain a brand and that activity and feedback from a founder during the process?
Taylor (12:44.549)
I think it has to be more than just passion. Passion is a great part of it. Passion is the fuel. But if you don't have the knowledge and insights, let's say, of the industry you want to tackle, you can have all the passion in the world. But that isn't going to get you to that next point because you aren't looking at anything. You're so here. And as a founder, I think that's good at a certain point.
But once you get to a certain tier, gotta kinda have to open things up to see how that world works. Because now it's not about you and your passion, it's about how is my audience gonna receive this that I'm trying to put into the world. I think passion is, like I said, passion is good if it's a self project. Have all the passion you want. But if you aren't talking to your audience, talking to your consumers, have a broader view of,
just what's going on in the world to see what buying patterns are, what trends are, what people like, what they don't like, and getting just to the bare grit and bones, talking to your customers, getting their feedback, getting their input on what you're doing. Cause at the end of the day, they will be the lifeblood of your company or of your brand. So that's my two cents about it.
Taira (14:11.17)
No, absolutely. No, but you know, I think you have to have the passion, right? Because that when the days get hard, right? And building a brand, you know, building a business that you have to feel have something that you're fighting for, right? But I think it's important for.
Taylor (14:20.805)
Yeah.
Taylor (14:26.149)
Yeah.
Taira (14:28.674)
for brands and brand owners to realize that they have to step outside of themselves, right? That's why they come to a person like yourself. That's why they come to, you know, a person like me, right? It's because they need help to be able to step outside of themselves and see, okay, how is it I'm supposed to engage and speak with my consumer and my audience base? What is it does my community like, right? I think you can't look at your audience today, any audience today, especially in this day and age and say they're one thing.
Taylor (14:48.773)
Yeah.
Taira (14:58.628)
I think that the consumer, today's consumer is an onion, right? They have layers and what you pull back each of those layers, right? It's no longer, oh, you have tattoos up your neck. That means that you're a rock star or you're do this. No, I see people with up to their neck might be a dentist, you know?
Taylor (14:58.885)
Yeah.
Taylor (15:05.541)
Mm -hmm.
Taylor (15:13.925)
Right. Right.
Taylor (15:19.939)
Mm -hmm.
Taira (15:20.93)
might be in working on Wall Street. I think that premise of if you have tattoos, that means that you can't be a productive person in life. You can be a multitude of different things. It doesn't mean that you're one thing. So I think they have to be able to step outside of themselves and get the feedback from their team. I think sometimes some brand owners, not all, some brand owners want complete control.
Taylor (15:43.589)
Yeah.
Taira (15:50.884)
but for the wrong reasons. They were on autonomy for everything. They don't like this copy because they don't like that. They don't like this image because they don't think it's catchy enough or all of these things. But you have to be able to put things out into the world, right? And get feedback from your audience and from your consumers, right? And it doesn't always have to be negative.
Taylor (15:53.573)
Yeah, I agree.
Taylor (16:03.909)
Mm -hmm.
Taylor (16:20.613)
True.
Taira (16:20.804)
right? They think that if I'm hearing from my consumers, it is negative. No, it's a, this is a, marketing and brands is no longer a one way street. It's a two way street, I think.
Taylor (16:34.789)
Yeah. I agree. I agree wholeheartedly, you know.
I feel like number one, you're right about the passion part, because it, you know, you get those days and nights where it's like, why am I doing this? Why am I, why am I still here? Why am I fighting this battle that I don't have to fight? So yes, you need that passion to kind of get through those dark times. But again, to your other point, you have to be open -minded to seeing what the world has to say. You can't be, you can't, you, you gotta get out your own way sometimes.
And I think that's where we've seen, I've seen numerous clients fumble because they're in their own way. It becomes personal to them. It becomes very me, me, me, me, me. I don't care what anyone else says because I like it. And that's, and that it just, you can't have that mindset. You just absolutely cannot. So.
Taira (17:36.546)
So, how do we then know, right, a client has recognized, hey, I need help. I don't know where these steps are. I don't know who I should be turning to. What should business owners, brand owners be thinking like, okay, you recognize I need help. What's that next process? What's the next step?
Taylor (17:45.253)
Yeah.
Taylor (18:02.181)
I think after you say to myself, hey, I need help. I don't know anything past where I'm at. I need to bring in someone or a company, team, agency, whatever, to help us get to that next point. I think what you need to do as an owner is to say, I'm gonna put trust in this person's, this team's experience, what they've done, what I've seen them do, and let them do,
what I feel they're capable of. That's like, for example, the plumbing at your home goes bad. You hire a plumber and says, hey, we need to fix it. Plumber says, I got you.
but at the whole time you're standing over the plumber telling him what wrench he should use, what screw this is, how he or she should mount X, Y, and Z up. It's like, yo, I'm here, let me do my job. I'm here to support you.
I'm here to see you win. Let us do that. And I think once a founder who our owner can understand that and accept that, it's all good. But again, it gets into the I'm in my own way stuff because I want the control. I want the final say so I want the credit. And it's just like we sometimes don't even care about that. I just want to do my job and go home.
I don't care who this win falls on. So, yeah.
Taira (19:35.65)
So let's talk about navigating, working with folks. Because really, at the end of the day, it's understanding personalities, right? How do you get through to a client? Do you have a protocol, like, OK, the one, two, three strikes you out method? OK, we're going to have a conversation once, twice. OK, third time, you know what?
Taylor (19:39.797)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Taylor (19:47.943)
Absolutely.
Taira (20:01.858)
Thank you, our agreement is coming to an end. I'll see you when I see you. Like how do you navigate working with a difficult client? Because that's when it becomes difficult.
Taylor (20:04.755)
Yeah.
Taylor (20:10.867)
I think, you know, after you, let's, let's walk through the whole, the whole case scenario. Like, you know, you onboard a new client.
You guys dial in what the objective is, you get the scope of work. Everyone knows what they're supposed to do. The client knows what he or she is supposed to do. The agency or team knows what they're supposed to do. They know what milestones they have to hit. They know what needs to be delivered on what time, how, the who, when, what's in what's been answered. I think when things get muddy, and like I've experienced this personally.
you working with a client and everything's been dialed into a "T" and something comes from left field and the client says, hey, we're already paying you to do this. You might as well do this too. Ah, doesn't work like that because now you're number one, your timetable gets messed up because you're throwing stuff on my plate. That's going to hinder why I'm here in the first place.
Second thing is what you're asking me to do comes with a cost. This isn't, you know, an all you can eat spot where you pay one time and think I'm going just get everything because I'm here. Again, it doesn't work like that. We've dialed in everything we're supposed to do. And then I think sometimes clients forget you have other clients. So now I'm having to take on, are you wanting me to accept?
Taira (21:33.858)
Right.
Taylor (21:48.819)
a bigger workload from you at a no cost to then slow down someone else's project who's on time, professional, paying me on time, it just doesn't add up. So does it get to a three strikes you're out? It gets to let's have this conversation. Let's discuss, number one, why you think it's okay. And number two,
If you think it's okay and the agency or team has the bandwidth, are you willing to increase what you're paying? And if you're not willing to increase it, it isn't going to happen, at least not from me or my team or whoever else right now. So after so many conversations, if the issue is pushed, then we just...
professionally wrap up that scope of work with that new piece of work not being included. Once that contract comes to its term, then we part ways. And you know, it's no love lost because I tell people all the time, this is this is only business. It's not, you know, it's not personal. I still like you as a human being, but your business doesn't work well with my business. And that's OK.
And these are talks and conversations I've had multiple times with clients over the years. Because I think when the mom and pops come on board.
they have so much they wanna do. And they see what you can output and what your skill sets are. But when they realize, hey, I can only afford maybe part one and part two, not the entire alphabet, they feel like, well, I'ma just sneak this in because, you know, we're cool, Taylor won't mind, it doesn't work that way. And it's funny because I've had this same talk with, you and I are having with colleagues at big companies.
Taylor (23:50.675)
And they'll be like, yeah, we have clients that do the same shit all the time. And it kind of gets to a point, do you take it to not ruin the rapport? Or do you kind of stand on business so it doesn't happen again? I think that's the gray line you have to kind of juggle and walk that tightrope. But more times than not, it's going to be a no.
because I feel like, you know, if you, you'll get taken advantage of time and time again, your time, your experience, it all goes to waste because they just want more and more from you. So that's how I deal with it. What about you?
Taira (24:29.854)
Similarly, very much very, very similar. Let's have a conversation. Hey, wait a second. I understand why you're bringing this up and it is valid. Let's talk about this in phase two. I don't think that this is important to bring into this phase or for us to work through right now.
Taylor (24:35.091)
Okay.
Taylor (24:45.875)
Yeah.
Taira (24:54.562)
and work through that. I think sometimes some business owners are ready to be combative. I'm paying you. You're my employee. You should do... No, no, hold on. No, no, no, no. Let's rewind. Pump the brakes. No, you hired me to be a partner, right? I'm not necessarily on your paperwork, but I'm a partner that you brought on to help execute something specifically.
Taylor (25:04.915)
Yeah, yeah.
Taylor (25:10.033)
Yeah.
Taylor (25:15.891)
Yeah.
Taira (25:24.738)
I understand that hey, time is of the essence. I understand that hey, there are goals that some things do come up. And sometimes it is applicable to the situation, right? Because it wasn't thought of and you understand, you're like, mm, okay. And I can say there have been times where I have compromised and been like, okay, you know what? We're just gonna add this in here and we do these things. But...
Taylor (25:47.603)
Mm -hmm.
Taira (25:50.778)
Oftentimes when I do say yes, it's because the client is willing to do something in return or you know, whether it might be monetary, like, okay, we'll keep on for an extra month or this, but it could be as simple as you know what, if I need you to come out to this event or do this thing, I'm going to pay for, you know, the expense I'm going to provide you or reimburse you for this or whatever the case may be.
Taylor (26:03.635)
Yeah.
Taylor (26:14.387)
Got you.
Taira (26:19.362)
And then sometimes I might look at the situation and say, well, I can, I can, I can benefit from this in some form of fashion, right? It's not necessarily about the client. I'm willing to do that, but I can definitely say, you know what, I'm going into almost four years of doing bu'kei You no longer feel the need to do, to extend yourself. I no longer have feel the need to have to overextend myself to show my value. And I think early in my career,
Taylor (26:25.617)
Yeah.
Taylor (26:39.603)
Yeah.
Taira (26:47.052)
early in starting bu'kei and going through this process, right? You do those things, overextend yourself, say yes, you know, more than you should, because you're like, well, shoot, I'm new in this game. I need to make sure that everything that I can to build this rapport with this client, is it something that I haven't done before, right? That I need to make sure that I can have a case study and a viable use for myself afterwards. But I can definitely say in 2024, we not, I'm not budging on it. We definitely standing on business.
Taylor (26:52.595)
Yeah.
Taylor (27:00.691)
Mm -hmm.
Taira (27:16.034)
We're following the scope of work. We will talk about a phase two. We can start a new list, and that can be something that can be added to phase two.
Taylor (27:18.641)
Yeah.
Taylor (27:26.035)
Let me ask you this. Do you like when owners or founders are involved in the process that you've been brought in to work on with you? Or do you prefer them to kind of just wait until you're done to see what's been executed?
Taira (27:46.22)
depends on what kind of business owner and founder I'm working with. To me, I get the best results being a part of a community, right? Having professional relationships, other creatives, other folks who can bring valuable information to the table. So you as a founder, you might not be able, my business partner, for example, Betty, she'll tell you all day long, I'm not creative. I'm a...
Taylor (27:49.587)
Okay.
Taira (28:15.522)
I don't have a creative bone, but I can give, she will give viable feedback that I can then take and transform, right? I think it's if an owner can come in, a founder can come in and say, hey, I might not like this color palette. This is why I feel it gives this, it does this. Oh, I don't really like this messaging because, you know, this is what my thoughts were originally, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Taylor (28:27.443)
Okay.
Taira (28:44.93)
I'm okay with that. Let's have a dialogue. Let's have a feedback. Let's, let's come to a middle ground. Let me present it to you and explain the thought process. And if you feel differently from that and, and, and still feel strongly, let's come to a middle ground. That's how I want to work. But don't come to me and say, I don't like it. Well, what do you don't like? You don't like, I don't, I don't like it. Okay. Well, what you don't like it's, it's not such and such for me. Okay. But what, what,
Taylor (29:00.179)
you.
Taylor (29:05.619)
I don't know, I just don't like.
Yeah.
Taira (29:14.574)
Give me a definition of what you do you determine to be that oh, it's not funny enough Okay, but what do you consider funny everybody's sense of humor is what different right? You know but It can be difficult I can say it can be difficult right I've worked with a client where it was to partner
And those partners had two different types of style, two different types of, and so they themselves as a partnership never got on the same level as to what the, the taste level or, you know, what the, having some kind of commonality. So now when you bring in another person to the situation, one person's going to like it. One person's going to hate it no matter what. And I think sometimes it may be simply because they didn't have any input on in it.
Taylor (29:59.891)
Yeah.
Taira (30:09.858)
And because they didn't get a chance to be like the one to say, oh, I chose this person. Oh, I choose this project. That can be, that can also be the attitude, the reason for the attitude. But how do you feel T? Is it like get out my way or is it let's collaborate and get this thing done.
Taylor (30:16.499)
Yeah.
Taylor (30:29.139)
To be 100 % transparent, me personally, I'm not speaking for everybody, me is get out my way. Because if you're a non -creative founder, we don't think the same.
Taira (30:38.114)
Okay.
Taira (30:44.45)
Mm.
Taylor (30:44.787)
I'll take input, I'll take suggestions, and I'll take ideas. But within that whole ideation phase of me onboarding you and I'll ask my 1 ,000 questions, and if 995 of them you can't answer, I don't need you in the room when I'm working. Because you don't know. And it's no slight, but you don't know what you don't know. If I'm asking you, okay, well,
Taira (31:03.938)
Right.
Mm
Taylor (31:14.057)
Who is this creative targeting? What is this messaging going to say? Who is it going to? What type of human being? How many buyer personas are we trying to create? Who is our ICP look like? All these things that go into the behind the scenes of creative. If you just, you know, got the shrug, shoulder, look, you can't help me right now because you don't know. So I want someone in the room who I can lean on, who can give me ideas.
and support of what we're trying to build right now. To me, if you don't have ideas, you don't have thoughts that are positive that will push the agenda forward, you're just now getting in the way because you're now noise. You're just bringing in outside noise of, well, so -and -so is doing this. Well, so -and -so is doing that. And I tell clients who do that, you're telling me what brand X is doing or brand Y is doing.
and it's working for them. But the 10 ,000 hours behind it, it's why it's working. It's not a, I just woke up one day and said, you know what? I'm going to do this shit and see if it works. Rarely is that the case. They've put time, effort, energy into really putting this piece of work together for who is a...
Taira (32:31.252)
you
Taira (32:37.862)
Fine -tuning all the details. Yep.
Taylor (32:40.264)
Yeah, for who it's supposed to work for. And then when you work, it's like, aha.
all this behind the scenes now makes sense. Because, I mean, we've all gone through, we've all put out campaigns or social media or email or whatever that there was no target. Especially when you first get started, you just kind of like blast in shit, just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. But then when you kind of understand, hey, I need to tailor, no pun intended, everything I do,
Taira (32:52.29)
you
Taylor (33:13.607)
to a certain human being. Now.
It's working. Now you see the growth, the reach, the response, the, the, the click through rates are through the roof. The open rates are working. The conversion is there. So again, me personally, if you can't aid in these steps, I don't need you in the way. I'll give you a report of what's happening and what's not. And when we need to make changes, cause certain things you'll have to sign off on, but no, it's like, let me and my team do what we do.
and we'll get the job done for you.
Taira (33:50.21)
Understandable. And I guess because so much of my career has been predicated on a team environment. Like, okay, like there's options one, two, three. These are two different options. Okay. We like these, we don't like these. What do we like? What we don't like? Let's go in and figure that. But I definitely strongly understand, you know, there are parts of the process you don't need to be a part of. To be honest, you want to tell them there are parts of this process I do not need.
Taylor (33:58.183)
Mm -hmm.
Taylor (34:01.637)
Yeah.
Taylor (34:06.821)
Yeah.
Taylor (34:15.303)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taira (34:19.97)
of let us run through our first campaign. Let's get it, let's put it out there. Let's get feedback. The feedback cannot be the feedback of one. That's not feedback. To me, that's opinion. You know?
Taylor (34:34.919)
And that's when you look at the bigger scope, when you look at big agencies, big companies, they're departments for a reason. It's rarely you have a meeting where everyone is involved because you don't need everyone. If it's a creative meeting, you have maybe certain people of the creative team.
like the heads of the teams and then they go back and dissect it with their teams and then their teams. Like it's a it's an actual tree and that tree everything flows through the roots.
Taira (35:03.444)
you
Mm -hmm.
Taylor (35:10.823)
And that's how it has to happen. So yeah, I prefer to work with my direct team if I'm hiring third party freelancers, if it's, you know, what me and my business partner have to do. But having having all these people in it to me makes a bigger mess. It's like you can't have too many. You only need one chef in the kitchen. You know, you have different cooks.
And these cooks are all focusing on different things, but there's only one chef. And he or she is dictating the tone of the room, what happens, and what needs to be executed that night. That's it. And then we make changes at the end of the day to see what works and see what didn't work. And then we just grow from there. So that's my personal mindset.
Taira (36:05.09)
Okay, no, that makes sense. What about the process in which now you've started with a client.
Taylor (36:05.608)
Yeah.
Taylor (36:14.376)
Mm -hmm.
Taira (36:16.244)
you've you put your systems in place when we know what your goal orders are you say okay i need for you to here are your tasks you are to accomplish this this this and this we need it done by a day how do you navigate working with a client who doesn't move with urgency
Taylor (36:25.798)
Yeah.
Taylor (36:29.352)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taylor (36:37.192)
I think that's like every fucking project.
Taylor (36:44.136)
It's a difficult conversation sometimes, but it's either going to be you do it because now you're slowing us down because you're not delivering your end of the bargain or give it to us, we'll raise the price and we'll get it done faster than you could even think of it being done.
Taira (36:46.516)
you
Taira (36:53.666)
you
Taylor (37:12.777)
And we, and I see that.
Taira (37:12.994)
You hear that brand, you hear that? You hear that listeners, brand owners that are listening?
Taylor (37:16.584)
I go through that more times than not, where I give clients, hey, these are the deliverables you have to do for us to execute. And if you can't get it done, then let us know. Like, say that. Get on the phone, send an email, Taylor, we can't get this done in time. Do you mind putting this on your plate?
That's a quick conversation. If your budget allows for you to give it to me, then we'll knock it out the park. But the more you drag your feet, the more you slow down your own project. And if you want to drag this out forever, I'm OK, because I'm still charging. It just looks bad for you.
because that bill will still come every week, every two weeks, every month, or whatever we set in our agreement, it's going to come. And that's just how it has to be. But I think a lot of times owners don't, they don't, when they hire an agency, they don't realize.
number one, what they're getting themselves into, especially for solopreneurs who are just small teams who don't really have to answer to anyone. And I'm not saying like, hey, as an agency owner or whatever, like you got to answer to me, but I'm a hold you accountable because you for sure want to hold me accountable. Cause if I don't deliver on my end, I'm going to get the nastiest email, the why isn't this done? You're being paid all this other stuff, but I'm sick.
Taira (38:26.722)
you
Taira (38:46.37)
Right.
Taylor (38:55.672)
and you an email saying, hey, I can't get to phase two because you haven't executed dot, dot, dot. It's like, oh, well, you know, I don't need the excuses. Just get it done or open your budget and we'll take care of it for you.
Taira (39:15.586)
How, let's be honest, how many times are these owners gonna have the hard conversations that they need to have with themselves?
Taylor (39:17.925)
Yeah.
Taylor (39:28.165)
They're not, most are not. Most independent brand owners, no, they're not gonna have those hard conversations. Because again, they're used to not being accountable to anyone but themselves. Now you're pulling in a team who is thorough, professional.
you know, cross their t's, dot their i's, and pride themselves on getting the job done on time and the output being as high as possible.
Taira (40:00.916)
you
Taylor (40:02.149)
You know, that's like, you know, a kid going from going from, you hear about it, a kid going from college to the pros in sports and how the speed of the game changes. In college, you know, you're killing, you know, 40 points a game, hoop it. You go to an NBA where that pace is different. The guys are stronger, they're taller, they're more powerful, and you just weren't ready for it.
Taira (40:08.606)
Mm -hmm.
Taylor (40:27.236)
So having that sit down, I rarely see a client look themselves in the mirror and say, it's not you, it's me. I'm the one slowing this down.
Taira (40:42.626)
And it's unfortunate because that's where a lot of brands head to the grave after that point, from that point. When you no longer have a team that's willing to execute and do the things that need to be done, it just ends up in the brand graveyard, so to speak.
Taylor (40:47.308)
Yep. Yep.
Taylor (40:57.429)
Absolutely. And you see it more and more as entrepreneurial, whatever, becomes like the new cool kid. Everyone wants to launch a product in whatever industry. Our launch, you know, a course. It's just like, yo, like I tell people, being an entrepreneur is not for everyone. Being a brand owner is not for everyone. It's only good when shit is going good. Because when things go dark and go left and
All the fingers are pointing to you to take the blame. That's what people don't want to do. When you have those sleepless nights because you know you're thinking about a project or what you got to do or a conversation. No one wants to, no one wants to go through those things. People only want the praise. Like, oh, I love the brand. I love the product. It's so successful. That's what it's like. Oh yeah, that's me. I'm the entrepreneur. But the other side, no one wants to deal with that heat.
No one wants it. So again, it's not for everybody. But those who do it, I will say, and I've seen it, those who do it, do it well, like they deserve everything they have. Wholeheartedly. Because what they've endured, what they go through, how they manage it, to me is like, you can't ask for anything else. And then the clients you get who understand how to work with you,
who understand, hey, I need to be accountable. I need to, you know, get my things done so this team could get their things done for me so this campaign can be executed successfully so my customers are happy. I love those. I love people like that.
Taira (42:24.026)
you
Taira (42:42.882)
they definitely make our lives easier. So.
Taylor (42:43.139)
Yeah, 10 times and they make the project that much easier to work on.
Taira (42:49.826)
You're not regretting that weekly phone call or anything like that.
Taylor (42:50.466)
You know, absolutely not. No, if you call me on a Sunday and the project is cool, I'm not gonna trip. You know.
Taira (42:58.434)
He called me on Sunday and I fucking hate working on your project. Now it's like.
Taylor (43:05.14)
Oh yeah, nah, nah.
Taira (43:10.452)
All right, T. So tell the folks again, how do you avoid stagnation and continually engage your audience?
Taylor (43:19.809)
You just always gotta be thinking 10 steps ahead.
That's the main thing. Focus on what's coming. What do you feel is coming and pay attention to everything. Don't just focus on your industry, your niche, your product. Focus on everything because no matter how big or small your product is, your brand is, you're going to fit into a world where like you said, people aren't just face value. People are deep, their depth, their layers to this. So you have to kind of think about how will my product
kind of be involved in their daily lives. So think about the whole scope. Think about the ecosystem of the customer you want to reach and how can my product or whatever I'm doing add value to that person's life or to that person's day -to -day routine. So yeah.
Taira (44:17.826)
You know, we want to thank everyone for tuning in to another episode of Apartment 24. And we want to hear from you, fellow marketers, freelancers, agency owners. How do you keep and inject creativity into your clients' work? Follow Apartment 24 on all your favorite platforms. Until next time.
Taylor (44:40.288)
Peace.